Rees-Mogg says Tucker Carlson chases clicks after viral Russia and WWII debate

The Russia exchange

Sir Jacob Rees-Mogg has fact-checked Tucker Carlson in a debate that has gone viral, after the US commentator said Russia has a larger economy than Britain and questioned whether the UK benefited from the Second World War.

In the exchange, Carlson said Russia had 'a much larger economy' than Britain, 'much more wealth and resources' and 'a much larger manufacturing sector'. Rees-Mogg rejected that, saying Russia's GDP is smaller than the UK's. When Carlson argued GDP was not the only measure of an economy, Rees-Mogg replied: 'It's a pretty important measure of an economy.' He described Russia as 'an economic failure'.

The Second World War clash

The debate then turned to the Second World War. Rees-Mogg called it 'the classic good versus evil'. He said the UK did the right thing, that defeating Hitler made Britain a better and healthier country, and that otherwise people would be speaking German. Carlson responded: 'Who cares? There are a lot of people in Britain who can't speak English. So it would be nice to have at least a European language spoken in your country.' Rees-Mogg said he saw no benefit in German over any other language and added: 'We want to speak English.'

Rees-Mogg's later remarks

Rees-Mogg later appeared live from the Conservative Party Conference. He said Carlson's views on Hitler were extraordinary and that the Second World War was straightforwardly good versus evil. He said his comment about speaking German meant Britain would have been under a dictatorship that allowed no free speech, no free elections and murdered people who disagreed with it. Avoiding that fate was good for England and the whole world, he said.

Asked why Carlson would go into bat for dictators such as Vladimir Putin and Hitler, Rees-Mogg said Carlson had seemed intelligent and thoughtful before and after the interview. His only explanation, he said, was that Carlson wants clicks. Saying increasingly outlandish things brings more clicks and more money, he argued, but costs credibility. He also noted his own rebuttal had gained about six million clicks.

Rees-Mogg rejected any suggestion that Britain might have been better off under German occupation. He said Hitler would have murdered Jewish people in England, as well as disabled people, and that his regime was a murderous machine built on eugenics. Stopping it had to happen, and the economic consequences were trivial by comparison. He added that the British economy recovered well after the war and is much richer than in 1939.

On Russia, Rees-Mogg said its economy was shrivelled and failed because of a kleptocracy supervised by President Putin. He acknowledged the British economy had not done brilliantly in recent years but said it had performed much better than Russia's.

EU freedom of movement

In the same appearance, Rees-Mogg said rejoining the European Union would require accepting freedom of movement, calling it a sine qua non of membership. He said free movement would be worse than in 2016 because Germany had taken in a million Syrians and Spain had granted amnesty to hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants, creating a larger mobile population that might want to come to the UK. He recalled that David Cameron sought changes to free movement during his renegotiation and was told no because it is one of the EU's four freedoms.

Panel reaction

A panel discussion afterwards praised Rees-Mogg. Historian Rafe Heydel-Mankoo said most people knew Russia's economy was about the size of Italy's. He called Carlson a nefarious clickbait merchant who does not believe what he says, citing a video from 30 years ago in which Carlson called the argument that America should not have entered the Second World War odious and wrong while attacking Pat Buchanan. He also noted Carlson's earlier pro-Trump broadcasting, his claim that the 2020 election had been stolen, and private messages in which he called Trump demonic and described election fraud claims as ridiculous. Commentator Nigel Nelson said Rees-Mogg wiped the floor with Carlson, quoting the medieval theologian Thomas Aquinas and explaining what constitutes a just war. He said the Second World War and the Falklands War were just wars.